Here's the transcript of our interview and discussion at Sophrosyne's Saturday Salon today. You may see some names as _____ -- those are the people who didn't respond when I asked if it's OK to include their name in the transcript. :)

See photos and slides at flickr. The slides also a quick history of our experience in SL, so I get all nostalgic! Transcript follows...

[13:05] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ok everybody! Welcome to Sophrosyne's Saturday Salon!

[13:06] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Our spotlight guests this week are Jen and Seven Shikami, and we'll be talking with them about all sorts of thigns, from their residential community to retrogaming to wings to design in SL -

[13:06] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and then partying with Seven as our DJ over in South Park!

[13:06] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Welcome, Jen and Seven!

[13:06] Seven Shikami: Good to be here!

[13:06] Jen Shikami: Thanks so much for inviting us to this Salon! Hi, I'm Jen Shikami. :)

[13:07] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Would you two like to do an intro? I know we have slides -

[13:07] Jen Shikami: Sure!

[13:07] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and freebies! everybody take from the goody box! ::)

[13:07] Seven Shikami: I'm Seven. I make stuffs. Notably games.

[13:07] Meissa Thorne: Is the slide screen the one to your right now Soph?

[13:07] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: yes!

[13:07] Seven Shikami: We can has slides.

[13:08] Jen Shikami: Anyway, hi everyone. I'm Seven's sister (here and biologically). I first visited SL years ago but didn't stick around. I came back a little over a year ago and promptly got hooked on building. Conveniently I already had a background in building with and texturing primitives since I was a Bryce 3D artist before that.

[13:08] Galatea Gynoid: 8 bit? tee hee

[13:08] Meissa Thorne: I'm still blurry. Who are you again?

[13:08] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: hung over, Meissa? :P

[13:09] Seven Shikami: I got started as an anonymous tourist, which is why I didn't use any of my more widely known names when I joined SL. Pity. I moved into content creation to supply some of the things I couldn't find for myself, notably Skeeball.

[13:09] Meissa Thorne: Well, I was drinking at lunch. But I haz an excuze.

[13:09] Jen Shikami: Our slides are set up as a kinda history, so I'll just go through them in order. :D

[13:10] Seven Shikami: Meeemorieeees...

[13:10] Jen Shikami: Seven bought me some land as a Christmas present and I promptly decided I'd rather have a shop than a house. I've been homeless ever since. :D

[13:10] Jen Shikami: So here's the shop interior -- open air, on the side of a snowy mountain. Great views, a bit chilly. And that's us and our friends at our opening party, our few vendors as we set the place up, and the interior of the arcade.

[13:10] Extropia DaSilva: Live in the shop. Then it is a home as well.

[13:10] Seven Shikami: Yeah, I've had a condo, a lumpy house, a cottage... none of them really lasted. I was too focused on spending the prims on our shops and creative work.

[13:10] Jen Shikami: We do that. :) We have an office now but basically, yeah. :D

[13:11] Jen Shikami: My house lasted basically a week before getting shop-ified. :D

[13:11] Meissa Thorne: All you need is a couch to collapse on periodically

[13:11] Corcosman Voom: Bulders to the core

[13:11] Seven Shikami: Oldschool builders, from the early 90s of MOO/MUSH/MUD.

[13:11] Jen Shikami: That one lot of land quickly turned into a larger purchase... within a month we'd bought 1/4 of the mainland sim we were living in, Berthould Pass. Since I have a background of running online communities and enjoy it, I figured I'd try my hand at landlording... started renting out prefab ground and sky chalets.

[13:12] Extropia DaSilva: I know what MUD stands for. But what do the other two stand for?

[13:12] Jen Shikami: Yeah, we both have been admins in online text-based communities like MUSH and MUXes for years now. @_@

[13:12] Seven Shikami: Object Oriented and Shared Hallucination.

[13:12] Jen Shikami: They're basically different flavors of text-based virtual reality. :D

[13:12] Seven Shikami: Like an SL / Infocom mashup.

[13:13] Jen Shikami: Some are used for roleplaying, some are social/building, some are hack-and-slash (real "games")

[13:13] Jen Shikami: And of course there's crossover there to SL. That's why you'll often hear me call SL a "game" even though of course I know it's not. It's just shorthand for me.

[13:13] Seven Shikami: Notably I've left a long trail of virtual arcades in my wake across a dozen text based worlds. It's kinda my thing.

[13:14] Jen Shikami: So -- the slide shows our rental community back on the mainland, which we've since sold. This was good practice because as we started making sales, our insanity rapidly accelerated and we decided to buy an island. :D

[13:14] Seven Shikami: Plus the mainland was a pile of horror and we wanted to flee it screaming.

[13:14] Sophrosyne Stenvaag nodsnods

[13:14] Jen Shikami: Seven was making a lot more $ than I was back then, so I must take this moment to thank him for being so supportive. :D

[13:14] Seven Shikami: Just call me your cash cow.

[13:15] Jen Shikami: ... yeah that too... :D The clock tower you might see in this slide was hiding an ad tower. My neighbors and I built all around it.

[13:15] Meissa Thorne: Moo-ching?

[13:15] Extropia DaSilva: All your cash are belong to us?

[13:15] Sophrosyne Stenvaag tries hard not to giggle

[13:15] Seven Shikami: The mainland was becoming a disaster of lag, ads, bad neighbors, and worse. We wanted more space, more control, and the ability to really style our own locale.

[13:16] Jen Shikami: Plus since it was clear we'd be here long-term, we wanted a really permanent location so we'd never feel like we had to move away again. (thus breaking all landmarks...)

[13:16] Jen Shikami: *flips to next slide* So here's an exterior shot of our old mainland property right before we moved to Flotsam Beach. We worked ahead so we'd have all the pieces ready to plop down as soon as LL delivered the island. So, here's a lighthouse I was building on top of arcade, the shop, and Seven's house.

[13:16] Seven Shikami: Yeah, really lay some foundations and settle in. No parcel shuffling, no chaos, just situate and hibernate.

[13:17] Seven Shikami: The preplanning stage was intricate. We wanted to be ready to go from as close to day one as possible.

[13:17] Jen Shikami: Plus then we'd be better able to have ground-level rentals for our community. Berthould Pass was really beautiful, but also incredibly hilly so most places were in the sky. They could hang out at the ground-level poola nd enjoy the view, though.

[13:18] Jen Shikami: Yeah, we had spreadsheeted grids of what would go where, where the rentals would be, etc... so as soon as they delivered the island, we sliced it up into lots and dropped all our made-ahead-of-time buildings. :D

[13:18] Sophrosyne Stenvaag is in awe of the organization....

[13:18] Jen Shikami: We were hyper-excited, that helps. ;)

[13:18] Seven Shikami: We slapped down triangles to mark lot corners, since we'd gridded the whole thing out ahead of time.

[13:19] Jen Shikami: Plus at $300/month, we didn't wanna sit around slowly building for any longer than necessary. o_o

[13:19] Jen Shikami: Yeah, and then when we were sure of the corners, we sliced the lots.

[13:19] Seven Shikami: Yeah. Good gravy rental is ridiculous, mainland or otherwise...

[13:19] Jen Shikami: I should've taken more pictures. ;_;

[13:19] Jen Shikami: We opened in May 2007! Woo! Check out the funny "Historical History" Seven wrote up as a backstory about the island -- it's in this box of freebies next to my chair here. :)

[13:19] Seven Shikami: Yeah, we mixed some authentic east coast beach community history with some SL wackiness.

[13:20] Jen Shikami: I immediately started a big ad blitz to try and get the place rented out. We figured at $2/prim/week, we had really good rates... as a result we filled up rentals within a month or two and have stayed mostly full since then.

[13:20] Jen Shikami: Here's a boardwalk view, map, Cove Island, and barrier dunes. There are plenty of tropical beaches in SL already... Like Seven just said, we're trying to go for a sort of temperate East Coast beach feel. Lots of nostalgia for that since we used to go there on vacation as kids. :)

[13:21] Jen Shikami: At one point I spent almost a whole day trying to find a good photo of sea oats I could isolate and then plant all over. ;)

[13:21] Seven Shikami: Of course, we underestimated the sheer tidal wave of OTHER beach sims already available... but ours remains unique because it's more east coast, more atlantic.

[13:21] Jen Shikami: I'm not sure we really underestimated it... but yeah, there ARE a lot. :D

[13:22] Jen Shikami: We also built a (still unfinished, but fun) exploring game to encourage people to find things like the sunken pirate ship and burned ad tower. The Explorer's Club mascot is this little hermit crab on my shoulder, Samuel L. Crabson.

[13:22] ____ ____: And atlantic beaches are great :) I might be biased though..

[13:22] Seven Shikami: Yes, the scorched and broken down sunken ad tower is a favorite of mine. :D I snapped shots of real ads and turned them into parodies.

[13:22] Jen Shikami: The game works, it's just that I haven't finished the shell collecting part which you'd need in order to win the top prize (this is all free BTW)

[13:22] Extropia DaSilva: Does he quote from Ezikial 25:17?

[13:22] Jen Shikami: Seven, say when and I'll swap to the arcade slide. :D

[13:23] Seven Shikami: Ah, go ahead. I'll describe that one.

[13:23] Jen Shikami: Oh and RE: the island, we recently started a Flotsam Beach Weekly newsletter to highlight local events, businesses. There's a copy in the freebie gift box here.

[13:23] Seven Shikami: Okay, as noted, I like making arcades. Even on 100% text based places I ran with it out of sheer crushing nostalgia -- and the coding challenge of working within the environment'slimits to make an arcade style game in an authentic-feeling arcade envrion.

[13:23] Jen Shikami: Seven is a super-talented coder and I helped with art so he could make a slew of playable arcade games.

[13:24] Jen Shikami: Now I'll let him talk. ;)

[13:24] Meissa Thorne: Jen, group... mention group.

[13:24] Seven Shikami: Yeah, all our games use oldschool art... pixel art, vectors, whatever is appropriate to the style. High-definition low-resolution silliness, even down to 8-bit music.

[13:24] Jen Shikami: Oh yeah! Ah, if you want to hear about Flotsam Beach events, be sure to join the Flotsam Beach Tourists group. :D We don't spam you with notices, just one every Friday usually.

[13:24] Extropia DaSilva: You have Head Over Heels?

[13:24] Jen Shikami: The arcade is so 80s. I love it. :D

[13:24] Seven Shikami: This was apparently a huge, untapped niche market in SL because they started selling like hotcakes and never stopped -- even after I stopped being evil and making copyright violating games and only made originals.

[13:25] Seven Shikami: The only other person making rec-room games makes pool tables and such, not arcade challenges, and mine are 10 times cheaper and have less prims. *boast*

[13:25] Seven Shikami: Okay, continue. :D

[13:25] IYan Writer: no more (c) on games from the 80s i think

[13:25] Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs

[13:25] Jen Shikami: Well, I think playable non-casino games are still pretty rare in SL. Plus ours were all original -- early on we realized we'd better not violate copyright by copying existing games.

[13:25] ____ ____: I've seen some arcade games..

[13:25] Jen Shikami: So we just built within genre (driving game... shootan gaem...)

[13:25] ____ ____: I forget what the group was called.

[13:26] ____ ____: You can buy arcade machines, they work

[13:26] Seven Shikami: Insert Coin Arcade?

[13:26] Jen Shikami: Like I said, rare. There are some others out there too, yes. :D

[13:26] ____ ____: you can make it cost 1 L per play or fre- yeah. Them.

[13:26] Jen Shikami: That's us. :D

[13:26] Seven Shikami: That's me. :D

[13:26] IYan Writer: i saw some at The Pond

[13:26] Meissa Thorne: That's Sev.

[13:26] Galatea Gynoid: Hehe

[13:26] Jen Shikami: Hee hee.

[13:26] ____ ____: ....o.o; OH Hehehe you guys are awesome ..and I'm dumb

[13:26] Jen Shikami: Suddenly all becomes clear! :D

[13:26] ____ ____: lol

[13:26] Galatea Gynoid: yes they are. :D

[13:26] Corcosman Voom: Heh

[13:26] Jen Shikami: In the slide you can see Fist of Discomfort, our ninja brawler... also Whack-a-Mole, Cruise Control driving game, the Zombie Meltdown shooter, and an interior view of arcade as a whole. You can trade in the tickets from the games for free prizes. :)

[13:27] Jen Shikami: Shop next, Seven?

[13:27] ____ ____ blushes, shuts up again. Wants to say she likes zombie meltdown, but doesn't.

[13:27] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and their games will be coming One of These Days to the Secret Goldfish, across the bay!

[13:27] Seven Shikami: Rubber spiders, magic 8 balls, DEVO hats, etc... even full games as prizes.

[13:27] Seven Shikami: Yah, move on. :D

[13:27] Jen Shikami: We just charge $1 per game play so people have the nostalgia of pumping in quarters. :D

[13:27] ____ ____ mentally marks the place as "Need to visit"

[13:28] Jen Shikami: Here's the newly-redesigned interior of the shop. We made it all classy-lookin', which means of course we can't resist periodically inner-tubing or snorkeling in the pools. :D

[13:28] Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs

[13:28] Seven Shikami: We're gonna have an inner tube race around the island one day.

[13:28] Corcosman Voom: The pool is new?

[13:28] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ooooo! *takes notes*

[13:28] Meissa Thorne: Well, it had a rubber duck... what do you want from me?

[13:28] Jen Shikami: Landmarks in the box here. :D

[13:28] Jen Shikami: Yeah, I love it... nice professional-looking shop... discreet rubber duckie. :D

[13:28] Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs

[13:29] Seven Shikami: That's just how we roll.

[13:29] ____ ____: lol :D love the place already

[13:29] Meissa Thorne: And if the shop isn't enough, Jen's wings are amazing. And cheap.

[13:29] Seven Shikami: Speaking of which...

[13:30] Sophrosyne Stenvaag flaunts hers

[13:30] Jen Shikami: *flips slide to an unintelligible view of a zillion vendors*

[13:30] Jen Shikami: Our top sellers have always been Seven's arcade games, my flutter wings, and avatars and pets like the MicroPixies. (There's a MicroPixie shopping basket in the freebie box here.) I am a TOTAL wing fanatic so I was really thrilled that Seven agreed to be my code slave and develop our wing fluttering and customization code.

[13:30] Seven Shikami: Bwahahaha, mass consumer goods! PRODUCT!

[13:30] Jen Shikami: (Free wings in the box here if you didn't grab them already. :D)

[13:30] Meissa Thorne: Shameless commerce.

[13:30] Jen Shikami: Every time I release something new, I add freebie wings to a not-very-hidden spot in the shop... it's sort of a bonus to encourage our subscribers and to thank our buyers. :)

[13:31] Jen Shikami: Oh yeah, we are total talent whores. :D

[13:31] Corcosman Voom: I also love your kites

[13:31] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: oo, I didn't know about the kites!

[13:31] Seven Shikami: The wings and the games are our two biggest sellers but we have a bunch of other things, too -- "Seven's Selections" is because I didn't want our shop to be tied to any one category. It's whatever we wanna make.

[13:31] Jen Shikami: The kites are really popular too. Kids drag their parents in to buy them all the time. :D

[13:31] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: we'll have to get 'em out at the beach party!

[13:31] Jen Shikami: Yep!

[13:31] Meissa Thorne: They're out on the boardwalk, for those who can't find them.

[13:32] Jen Shikami: My last slide is just an example of a community event, our biggest to date. We had Keiko Takamura (Takamura Keiko) singing live, and Seven DJ'd. We tripled donations to result in a $955 USD donation to Child's Play. http://www.childsplaycharity.org/

[13:32] Seven Shikami: We rocked hard.

[13:32] Extropia DaSilva: Well done!

[13:32] Meissa Thorne: Keiko's moved her cafe to Flotsam Beach for her monday live shows.

[13:32] Corcosman Voom: Great work

[13:33] Jen Shikami: And a lot of you look real familiar from that event, so thank you again for your company and your donations to the kids!

[13:33] Jen Shikami: Yep, we're really excited to be the new hosts of Keiko's Cafe. :D

[13:33] Seven Shikami: Yeah, Keiko's Cafe and the techno hangout Heck are now residents of Flotsam Beach. We've got a good local music scene, and even a drive-in theatre with new movies each week.

[13:33] Jen Shikami: Also, we just started showing movies ... right. Hosted by Lexa Pro, at the drive-in. :D

[13:34] Jen Shikami: Seven, can you think of anything else to say here or shall we cue Soph for questions?

[13:34] Seven Shikami: Basically, we've taken the approach of finding and filling underrepresented niches in SL. East coast beaches, arcade games, wings, whatever... we make what we want to work on, and things others aren't doing. It's a good formula and it's gotten us from the start to finish of what you've seen here.

[13:35] Jen Shikami: Right. And we're very lucky that those niches happen to be so incredibly popular. Between that and our rentals, we've been amazingly profitable and haven't put any new money into SL since buying the island originally.

[13:35] Jen Shikami: (which was partly paid for by previous sales)

[13:35] Seven Shikami: I haven't bought SL bucks in about a year.

[13:36] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: wow....

[13:36] ____ ____ is jealous. Wow!!

[13:36] Meissa Thorne: It's also one of those noob friendly hangouts too. Lots of free stuff to do, and friendly renters.

[13:36] Corcosman Voom: Congrats on the vision and the organization

[13:36] Seven Shikami: I wanted to answer the criticism I hear of SL all the time of "What's there to DO in SL?". We provide things to do. LOTS of things to do.

[13:36] Jen Shikami: Yeah, all our renters are great. :D And very generous too -- Ansa Sautereau opened her part of the island up as a public park, for example, and landscaped it beautifully.

[13:36] Jen Shikami: Right, things to do, and for no (or very little) $

[13:37] Jen Shikami: By the way, if anybody's interested in participating in an inner-tube race around the island, join the Flotsam Beach Tourists group or just talk to me later. :D I'm trying to organize one.

[13:37] Meissa Thorne: There are free rezzing scooters, jet skis, surf boards. The scavenger hunt, free movies, free live music, some of the games in the arcade are free.

[13:38] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ok, let's start there - we've been hosting various community founders here, to discuss what they do and how -

[13:38] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and it seems clear your focus is on Stuff To Do -

[13:38] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: how do you manage to provide so much, and still be such prolific creators?

[13:38] Jen Shikami: Stuff to Do and also of course we have always had a strong focus on our own building. I'm kind of a shut-in in that regard. :D

[13:39] Meissa Thorne: Helpful folks help.

[13:39] Seven Shikami: Well, we see providing things to do as PART of being prolific creators. We create the things people do.

[13:39] Seven Shikami: Games, beaches to sit on, ensuring we have live music, making a theatre, etc... it's part of our work.

[13:39] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: does that affect the kinds of people you get moving in?

[13:39] Jen Shikami: Right, I mean... it's all about sharing stuff. As I've said before, I only charge for my creations to pay tier (and also as a small token to show that yeah, people really do like it.)

[13:40] Seven Shikami: Speak for yourself, I want a hat made of money.

[13:40] Jen Shikami: And it's a big thrill to me that my art in here is selling better than my physical art ever has.

[13:40] Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs

[13:40] Jen Shikami: Heh. :D

[13:40] Corcosman Voom: Heh

[13:40] Meissa Thorne: Well, there's the one renter that created a sort of welcome program/ schoool for new SLers.

[13:40] Seven Shikami: Although really, we keep our prices down because... well, why not? As long as the island pays for itself the rest is gravy. We have day jobs. We don't need to live off SL. So provide affordable fun.

(Then the sim crashed!)

[13:47] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: sim crash?

[13:47] Seven Shikami: Entire sim went kablooey, yeah.

[13:47] Jen Shikami: Hey, SL is awesome... in that "best possible solution in a world with no other current solutions" sense. :D

[13:47] Meissa Thorne: Yup. Everybody had to bail. And it didn't even record my last location right.

[13:47] ____ ____: Hi peeps

[13:47] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: me either - I arrived at home -

[13:48] ____ ____: SL is like the US government. It sucks, but it's still pretty good when you compare it to others.

[13:48] Galatea Gynoid: Yeah last location rarely works after a crash...

[13:48] Extropia DaSilva: never mind. Our unshakable faith in Singularity via mind-mapping nanobots by 2030 remains as solid as ever!

[13:48] Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs at Extro!

[13:48] Jen Shikami: Hee hee. :D

[13:48] Galatea Gynoid: lol

[13:48] ____ ____: Extro, you're not AI? The rest of us are!

[13:48] Corcosman Voom: Heh

[13:49] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: oooo, Azaiya, you look *amazing!

[13:49] Seven Shikami: Long live the new flesh. Death to Videodrome.

[13:49] Extropia DaSilva: I am not AI. I am the global brain whose meta-consciousness runs your AI as a subroutine.

[13:49] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ah, *that* explains the crashes!

[13:49] Jen Shikami eyes Seven sidelong. >_>

[13:49] Galatea Gynoid: Unstable metaconsciousness, yeah...

[13:50] Galatea Gynoid: It all makes sense now...

[13:50] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I was wondering how your focus on events shapes who's drawn to live there -

[13:50] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: are your residents more consumers, or co-creators?

[13:51] Seven Shikami: Well, it brought Heck and Keiko's Cafe into the fold, that's for certain. We're friends with them, yes, but the idea was to expand the amount of things to do, as well.

[13:51] Sophrosyne Stenvaag nodsnods

[13:51] Jen Shikami: Definitely.

[13:51] Jen Shikami: And not just "things to do" but hopefully event-type things to do concurrently.

[13:51] Meissa Thorne: It's a mix. Since there are residences on the island as well as shops for rent, and some people have both residences AND shops.

[13:51] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: How did your experience running MU**'s carry over?

[13:52] Jen Shikami: Right... the west (front) half of the island is boardwalk and shops... back half is residential.

[13:52] Seven Shikami: Beautifully. SL is basically just a MU* with graphics. A lot of the same standards of communication and building actually carry across well.

[13:52] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: was it misleading, or helpful? Were there things you had to unlearn?

[13:52] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: wow, ok -

[13:52] Jen Shikami: It definitely carries over. The island has a very small RP element in the sense that we are pretending visually and behaviorally that it's a public beach.

[13:52] Seven Shikami: I tried to simulate RL locations and objects in MU* and I do the same here.

[13:52] Jen Shikami: But moreso, it's about being there as authority to help locals in the case of disagreements, griefing, etc.

[13:53] Jen Shikami: And to help them as needed with house or shop set-up. I really absurdly enjoy that in particular. :D

[13:53] Seven Shikami: Yeah, our administrative experience running MU* communities is VERY similar to SL administrating.

[13:53] Seven Shikami: To the point where I leave it all to Jen because I hate being a wizard. n.n;

[13:53] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ok, what do you think are the top dos and don'ts for community management?

[13:54] Jen Shikami: Unlearn... hmm... well, we had to get used to the idea that people handle character/avatar identity in here very differently than they did in the RP environments we're from, which had much clearer division between player and character.

[13:54] Jen Shikami: But to get back to community management... hmmm..

[13:54] Seven Shikami lets Jen cover that; it's her area of expertise. She started Snowdrift largely to learn the art of SL management, even.

[13:55] Jen Shikami: Just to be as available as possible, really. Try to respond promptly (doesn't have to be immediately, but promptly) to greet new renters.

[13:55] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and we'll *definitely* come back to that point on identity!

[13:55] Jen Shikami: Visitors are just as important as renters -- we enjoy the island and the people who come there, either to explore or for our shop and arcade... so basically it's just a natural extension of friendliness. :D

[13:55] Jen Shikami: I figured, Soph, that's why I introduced it for later. ;)

[13:55] Sophrosyne Stenvaag grins

[13:56] Jen Shikami: My other piece of advice for any would-be community-builder or business-starter is... don't do it unless you LOVE the idea in the total absence of profit.

[13:56] Jen Shikami: Because let's face it, that's the most common experience in SL.

[13:57] Seven Shikami: Yeah, we're kinda the exception to the rule on profitability.

[13:57] Corcosman Voom: Break even is an accomplishment

[13:57] Jen Shikami: And while the money can make it even more fun or enable you to do more... there are quicker and more efficient ways to make money in physical reality. ;)

[13:57] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: oh yes!

[13:57] ____ ____: wait... you mean you can.. make money on a business in SL? Who knew?

[13:57] Jen Shikami: But if you're already a crazed builder or love running events or whatever, and you're doing it in here, and you happen to be making money... then hey, bonus.

[13:57] Seven Shikami: Break even is a terrific goal. Profit is nice but ideally if it pays for itself and you enjoy it that's enough.

[13:58] Seven Shikami: We were completely ready to swallow the costs of running our stuff just because we love doing this.

[13:58] Jen Shikami: And if you already have or enjoy fostering the skills to run a business, track everything, etc... that's even better. For me that's a huge part of the fun. Spreadsheets are like, porn. ;)

[13:58] ____ ____: there aint no money in baseball..lol

[13:58] Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs and shakes her head

[13:58] Corcosman Voom: A numbers person

[13:58] Seven Shikami: I've no head for numbers. I let Jen play treasurer. :)

[13:59] Jen Shikami: Since I'm his sister, I have extra motivation to not embezzle. ;)

[13:59] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: OK, Jen, let's pick up that point on identity -

[14:00] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: this is something we talked about back at our Solstice Party here -

[14:00] Jen Shikami: And yeah, to get back to what Seven just said -- this is such a huge creative outlet for us. We would pay whatever we can reasonably afford to keep going in here.

[14:00] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: (sorry, didn't mean to step on your lines there!)

[14:00] Jen Shikami: I mean, I used to spend at _least_ an island's tier on art supplies, averaged over a year, and now I don't buy any.

[14:00] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: that's an interesting way to think about it!

[14:00] Jen Shikami: Now I'm using money from SL to pay for my husband's car. :D

[14:01] ____ ____: O.O

[14:01] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: whoa -

[14:01] Jen Shikami: And um, some other stuff. Like I said, we're very lucky that we had the skillset and interests to pull this off profitably. :D

[14:02] Jen Shikami: So, wanted to get back to talking about identity? It's a common discussion topic here, I know. :D

[14:03] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: oh, we cover a lot of ground - and I have a bunch of questions for Seven too - but yesh -

[14:03] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: So, what do you see as the difference between SL and more RP environments?

[14:04] Seven Shikami: The RP envrions we were in on MU* had pretty hard definitions of IC and OOC. Rooms where one or the other was present, or flags you could set, or even just doing an "aside" OOC. It was an immersive RP system and well defined.

[14:04] Sophrosyne Stenvaag nods

[14:04] Jen Shikami: Well, in the RP environments we come from, there was a very clear and specific division between IC (in character) and OOC (out of character.)

[14:05] Seven Shikami: SL is... well, I'll admit, I'm having a harder time grasping the more "OIC" nature of how folks here roll. I'm too oldschool. I have trouble figuring out people who are playing a character but not really.

[14:05] Sophrosyne Stenvaag headtilts - "Could you elaborate on that?"

[14:05] Jen Shikami: So for example, I might have a really villainous character and people might say insulting things to him, but *I* wouldn't be insulted, I would be entertained. ;) And correspondingly, those other players wouldn't expect me to be insulted OOC.

[14:05] Jen Shikami: I think I can explain it...

[14:05] Sophrosyne Stenvaag nods

[14:06] Seven Shikami: Well, when someone has a persona they're taking on with a backstory and a different set of emotions and such... but also talk about how their Comcast went out or how the Lindens screwed something up, etc. It just feels weird to me.

[14:06] Corcosman Voom: There is no 'mark' for OOC or IC in SL

[14:06] ____ ____: lack of identity consistency over short time fragmentys?

[14:06] Jen Shikami: Here, there are a lot of people who are consistently presenting themselves a certain way. As catgirls or robots or whatever. And (in general) people are nice to each other as they would be to any stranger.

[14:06] Jen Shikami: Which is great.

[14:07] ____ ____: its all cursers...lol

[14:07] ____ ____: this is the debate of SL as a place for either Immersionists or Augmentists

[14:07] Seven Shikami: Consistency and confusion, yeah. When I'm RPing I'm writing a story collaboratively, it's fiction work, creative. I never really see it as "myself" but "my character." But... that's my personal take. I know that's not how others work.

[14:07] Jen Shikami: That's the thing, most people seem to be handling SL as a blend of immersion and augmentation.

[14:07] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I get that - but I *think* there's *very* little of that kind of RP in SL -

[14:07] Meissa Thorne: It's also tough with the environment. When you've worked to create a venue and a feel for the island, and then somebody comes on role playing something that would be totally unacceptable in Flotsam's RL inspiration, it's hard to grasp where people turn it off.

[14:08] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Jen, that's an interesting point-

[14:08] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Meissa, how so? Could you give an example?

[14:08] Jen Shikami: Right, there's some, but not much. It's mostly recreational sort of "I'm going to be a tiger today... or forvever" level of RPing.

[14:08] ____ ____: That actually is the somewhat psycho aspect of SL

[14:09] Meissa Thorne: Well, like with Jen's customers. I've sat with her and them discussing some wing concepts, totally relaxed and polite. Joking and just general conversation.

[14:09] Jen Shikami: Like for example, if someone shows up on the boardwalk whipping their naked slave... I'm gonna say, "Please stop that. Please wear pants." and hope they don't get upset at me for asking.

[14:09] ____ ____: the teeter-tottering between the immersion and augmentation and vacilation upon whim

[14:09] Seven Shikami: Yeha, but that's more behavior and politeness than RP, I think.

[14:09] ____ ____: what about all this..

[14:09] Jen Shikami: True.

[14:09] Meissa Thorne: Then had a master, pimp, whatever dominator come in, and rather than join the conversation, yell at the customer, and get rude with us.

[14:09] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Yeah, I think I agree with Seven tehre -

[14:09] ____ ____: they are all based on building metaphore of rp

[14:09] ____ ____: community but not

[14:09] Galatea Gynoid: There's a lack of a common backstore in SL, unlike some MMO environs...

[14:09] Galatea Gynoid: *backstory

[14:09] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: hm, _____, run with that a bit?

[14:10] Sophrosyne Stenvaag nods at Gala -

[14:10] Seven Shikami: Yeah, an MMO or a one-setting MUD has a common base to build on for RP.

[14:10] ____ ____: not SL but extropia

[14:10] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ahhh, Seven -

[14:10] Seven Shikami: Or heck, an RP sim in SL.

[14:10] Galatea Gynoid nods.

[14:10] ____ ____: both extropia and _____ are based on a central myth or backstory

[14:10] Seven Shikami: Well, there you go.

[14:10] Sophrosyne Stenvaag nods at _____ -

[14:10] ____ ____: and players- citizrns - whaterver

[14:11] ____ ____: are really not real citizens

[14:11] Galatea Gynoid: Extropia has a fairly minimalistic backstory, though... not terribly well defined.

[14:11] Jen Shikami: Sounds like a very similar concept then.

[14:11] ____ ____: only as much as they pLAY

[14:11] Galatea Gynoid: (on purpose)

[14:11] Meissa Thorne: There's the flip side too, that people just generally can be who they are, but take RP home when they want, and stifle it while shopping in anorhter area.

[14:11] ____ ____: no real consequeness yet

[14:11] Extropia DaSilva: Cheek! I am well defined!

[14:11] ____ ____: I was going to say, there's very little backstory or RP in Extropia.

[14:11] ____ ____: not too

[14:11] Galatea Gynoid: lol

[14:11] ____ ____: true i think

[14:11] Seven Shikami: But even outside of having a common base, it's when someone's embracing the Second Life concept as it's a wholly new life and they're a different person despite having considerable tieback to reality... I just can't get my head around it.

[14:11] Seven Shikami: Distinct character play and group interactive storytelling, sure, I love that.

[14:11] ____ ____: It's more a vision of a possible future, if even that...

[14:11] ____ ____: ita a open myth

[14:12] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I think there's a lot of grasping at ways to use the metaphor here - "open myth," I like that!

[14:12] ____ ____: future but not real

[14:12] Jen Shikami: It definitely took some getting used to when we got to SL, but the solution is to just take everyone at face value. That's what they want you to see/consider, after all.

[14:12] ____ ____: So. You think that the backstory in SL is a combination of RL and any previous or current RP agenda?

[14:12] Galatea Gynoid nods.

[14:12] Sophrosyne Stenvaag nods at Jen

[14:12] Meissa Thorne: And part of it is that creating an alternate identity while claiming no ties to your RL persona allows people an excuse to explore interests they are otherwise ashamed of.

[14:13] Meissa Thorne: "It's not me. It's AliCE0078."

[14:13] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Meissa, I think that's a gross overstatement -

[14:13] Seven Shikami: I have no clue what SL's common backstory is RPwise. I don't see it as having one. If it's a specific RP sim with specific RP designs and intentions, great, but just wandering around and RPing randomly in the middle of a store or something is... confusing.

[14:13] Jen Shikami: Not necessarily ashamed, Meissa... just... stuff they're more comfortable with in here, in general.

[14:13] ____ ____: what i simply mean is that since the reality is not ON

[14:13] Meissa Thorne: I wouldn't generlize it to everyone certainly.

[14:13] ____ ____: no SL has a platrform vs commu nity backstory too

[14:13] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and by RPing in that context, Seven, you mean like Goreans and so on?

[14:13] Galatea Gynoid: I think the confusing part for a lot of people is that some people don't claim no ties. They seem to be partially tied in, but also separate.

[14:13] Jen Shikami: I've read a recent article about teenagers experimenting with cybersex online, and several of them asserted that it felt like a safer and less intimindating outlet -- no chance of getting pregnant or sick.

[14:14] Corcosman Voom: There is also the element of SL experiences affecting your RL persona, a not uncommon experience

[14:14] ____ ____: right

[14:14] Jen Shikami: Soph, what we think of as RP is really more about collaborative storytelling.

[14:14] ____ ____: no real consequences

[14:14] ____ ____: or ID

[14:14] Seven Shikami: Not nessecarily Goreans, any sort of defined RP persona which obfuscates what's going on.

[14:14] Sophrosyne Stenvaag nods - a very different thing from life here-

[14:14] Jen Shikami: It's much more than just "I feel like pretending to be a _____"

[14:14] ____ ____: thus always distance

[14:14] Jen Shikami: It's more like, "What character can I create that would fit into the overall plot here in an interesting way?"

[14:14] ____ ____: Hmm. To me it seems a bit of everything just trying to sort itself out into a NEW identity..one that perhaps fits more accurately because it was more a merging of pasts, presents, futures, pov's from friends, enemies, self, rp's, etc

[14:14] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: _____, you're an oldbie - has SL evolved a common history?

[14:14] Galatea Gynoid: But if you're popping from sim to sim regularly, the story changes. So must the character?

[14:14] Seven Shikami: It's hard for me to put into words what exactly rubs me the wrong way. All I know is when IC and OOC blend together in awkward ways, it's puzzling.

[14:14] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ____, I like that -

[14:15] Jen Shikami: SL is so huge compared to the kinds of communities we're talking about, too.

[14:15] ____ ____: but i do see its own myth

[14:15] Jen Shikami: So here, even if there were some collective history to work from... you're unlikely to run into people who share that.

[14:15] ____ ____: and its own mythlogy at work

[14:15] ____ ____: and it takes many a while to see it i believe

[14:15] Jen Shikami: In the RP environments where we came from, mixing IC and OOC was a big taboo.

[14:15] Seven Shikami: Give me a solid story and a defined space for me to ACT and WRITE a CHARACTER and I'm happy as a clam. Blur everything and leave things fuzzy and start acting out a weird schizophrenia in public and, well, no.

[14:16] ____ ____: I'm with you on That Seven

[14:16] Corcosman Voom: There is no single backstory in SL?

[14:16] Meissa Thorne: You mean beyond the anonymity of names, right Sev?

[14:16] ____ ____: Unfortunately Seven, that's a large part of the core and appeal behind SL.

[14:16] ____ ____: Seven - I think there are a good many of us in SL who are basically our RL selves in , er, idealized avies

[14:16] ____ ____: no not by linden design as entertaianment no

[14:16] ____ ____: A place where you can both be yourself and not yourself at the same time.

[14:16] Malburns Writer: yup

[14:16] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: And, _____, a good many who aren't - we're all approaching this in differnet ways -

[14:16] Jen Shikami: Right, _____, and that's what SL very much seems to be.

[14:16] ____ ____: but in popm press there is a certain story

[14:17] Seven Shikami: Yeah, I know. The whole "I'm not me, but I am, wink!" thing doesn't work for me. But... it does work for some. And I won't begrudge them that.

[14:17] ____ ____: anche chung is a story myth

[14:17] Jen Shikami: Which means of course you are going to be nice to people by default, because you wouldn't want to hurt their feelings.

[14:17] Sophrosyne Stenvaag nods at _____ -

[14:17] ____ ____: The mixture of the blend varies from person to person and moment to moment.

[14:17] Corcosman Voom: Journalists simplify everything

[14:17] Jen Shikami: Just like when speaking to someone OOC on the old RP games we frequented, you would be nice.

[14:17] Galatea Gynoid: Most SLer's are Protean People. :)

[14:17] ____ ____: but it our culture that does too

[14:17] Seven Shikami: As long as it doesn't get in the way of people trying to get tech support for their broken skeeball machines and they aren't whipping their diaper wearing slaves in the middle of the store, I'm okay with it. :)

[14:17] Jen Shikami: It was particularly important there to get along OOC, since IC you might be beating the crap out of each other. ;)

[14:18] ____ ____: Seven is a confirmed Augmentalist

[14:18] Jen Shikami: And writing a good fight scene is very much a collaborative effort.

[14:18] ____ ____: Jen, we just have to get along, period.

[14:18] ____ ____: the two only mix by agreement

[14:18] ____ ____: thats the isseu in SL with most

[14:18] Jen Shikami: In the broader sense, yeah, _____. :)

[14:19] ____ ____: no one is quite sure whos aug and whos immers

[14:19] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I'm struggling a bit to wrap my mind around this, and I think I'm using a narrower definition of RP...

[14:19] ____ ____: My point is, I will never say "Sorry I was mean to you, that was IC" every action I take is persistent and has consequences here

[14:19] Corcosman Voom: And there is no clear 'mark' to say "Now I am OOC"

[14:19] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: _____, yeah, adn I think the response is to take everyone at face value -

[14:19] ____ ____: i think extropia and c3 are higher forms of RP

[14:19] Extropia DaSilva: I plan to devote some of my simulation space to running all augmentalists as uploads, just for the ironic pleasure of hearing them say 'I am in RL' as they wander around inside my software simulation;)

[14:19] Galatea Gynoid: :D

[14:19] ____ ____: right

[14:19] ____ ____: trust by verfiy..lol

[14:19] Jen Shikami: Right _____, I agree with you there -- in a place like SL, the "I was only roleplaying, so you can't complain abotu what I do" attitude is very inappropriate.

[14:19] ____ ____: Try not to wrap your mind around a new concept, but rather expand your mind to encompass it. ^_^

[14:20] Seven Shikami: Being a jerk = being a jerk regardless of what level of existential manifestation you are instantiating.

[14:20] Jen Shikami: (unless it's inside a clearly-defined RP-themed area)

[14:20] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: which, I hear mostly from griefers, sexual harrassers and other hardcore augmentationists -

[14:20] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: right right!

[14:20] ____ ____: its not aug vs imm as well

[14:20] ____ ____: its also game vs communication platform

[14:20] ____ ____: Unfortunately, Jen, people tend to believe that not being the same as your RL self means you are taking license to be mean

[14:20] ____ ____: the real crux of the issue

[14:20] ____ ____: just a suggestion - why not set up a convention of using hovertext to say whether you're IC or OOC?

[14:20] Seven Shikami: Regardless of whether I parse that style fo RP properly or avoid doing it myself, as long as it doesn't fall into jerkdom it'll be just fine.

[14:21] Jen Shikami: Peer, people do do that in RP-themed areas.

[14:21] ____ ____: Because not everyone would do it Peer.

[14:21] ____ ____: the rp ystems do thast dont they?

[14:21] Extropia DaSilva: People describing SL comes off like the blind men describing an elephant.

[14:21] Meissa Thorne: And just openly rude. The things people will say to a random stranger in some places just floor me.

[14:21] ____ ____: We'd have to get everyone to agree to one standard as well

[14:21] ____ ____: For that sort of thing to work, everyone has to be involved, or it's invalidated.

[14:21] Jen Shikami: Anyway, in SL the default assumption is that you treat people in a way that matches how they're presenting themselves.

[14:21] ____ ____: they have life/score/etc floatign over head

[14:21] ____ ____: Well, part of the _game_ here is not ever knowing when one is rp or not

[14:21] ____ ____: I realize that not everyone would use the system, but it would at least be better than nothing, wouldn't it?

[14:21] ____ ____: title yellow ALWAYS IC - ALWAYS OOC

[14:21] Meissa Thorne: But it's no different then things you'd experience in most RL bars either.

[14:21] ____ ____: DSC system

[14:21] Galatea Gynoid: Everyone is always RP.

[14:21] ____ ____: for ex

[14:21] Seven Shikami: That's a game I like to just opt out of, ____.

[14:21] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Meissa, yeah -

[14:21] Seven Shikami: I'll just treat people as respectfully as they treat me and cope.

[14:22] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: "I was only joking" is the first refuge of the asshole -

[14:22] ____ ____: lol

[14:22] Corcosman Voom: Heh

[14:22] ____ ____: Seven: of course, becouse you so well have categorized yourself.

[14:22] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and that translates here as "it's just a game"

[14:22] ____ ____: "Lighten up, it's just a game"

[14:22] Extropia DaSilva: What is it they say, 'When in Rome..'

[14:22] Galatea Gynoid: I'm not the same person at the office IRL that I am at home IRL or with my friends IRL. We all roleplay 24/7. We just consider some roles more core than others.

[14:22] ____ ____: :P

[14:22] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: right right!

[14:22] ____ ____: some prefer the flexible path

[14:22] Seven Shikami: Griefers use the same excuse. "It's just SL, so whatever I do doesn't matter."

[14:22] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: yeps, exactly!

[14:22] ____ ____: People have been using variations of that excuse forever.

[14:23] Meissa Thorne: The "It's just a game" attitude occurs as often as the RL "I was drunk at the time".

[14:23] Extropia DaSilva: Not true. The point is that it DOES matter. Griefers have fun by ensuring everyone else is NOT having fun.

[14:23] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: (and, a plug - next week we'll be discussing the Wired article on griefing

[14:23] ____ ____: well lets hope in a year that ID in 3d will be as clear as ID is on 2d text html pagees

[14:23] Seven Shikami: Just once I want to see SL mentioned in a gamer's community without everybody going "LOL furries nerds lame". I'd love to get some respect for SL because as a gamer, I'm tired of hearing it.

[14:23] Jen Shikami: But then how is that so different from saying, "My real-life self has no responsibility for what my in-SL self does"?

[14:23] ____ ____: I'm sure the first caveman that flung dinopoo at his buddy defended himself with 'Ug just joke!'

[14:23] ____ ____: By having us "bad elements" leave, Seven?

[14:23] Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs at ____ and nods

[14:23] ____ ____: my best customers are furrries

[14:23] ____ ____: to me they no diffetn than klingons'lol

[14:23] Seven Shikami: No, I don't want to push anybody out. I just want to emphasize to the folks outside who don't know that there's more to SL than that.

[14:24] Galatea Gynoid: We are all responsible for who we make ourselves to be.

[14:24] ____ ____: W-hat? griefers?...bad?

[14:24] Seven Shikami: It's got wonderous variety and that's a good thing.

[14:24] Jen Shikami: And the creative aspect of SL is so completely underrepresented in the popular concept of what SL is.

[14:24] ____ ____: Except the schizophrenics

[14:24] ____ ____: why not kill all teenagers then?

[14:24] Meissa Thorne: The truth of the matter is, nobody is going to spend the time and often the money that they do doing something they don't enjoy in some way. So total disconnection from your actions is never really possible.

[14:24] Terence McKenna: Good idea.

[14:24] ____ ____: sure,, creatives alwas get pushed out by lawyers and writersd

[14:24] ____ ____: lol its tech press

[14:24] Galatea Gynoid: lol

[14:24] Jen Shikami: Well, unless they have complete multiple personality goin' on, Meissa. ;)

[14:25] Corcosman Voom: 500,000 people, how many idiots do we really encounter?

[14:25] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: _____, yeah - the frontier gets overrun by cops and bankers pretty fast -

[14:25] Seven Shikami: Very, very few.

[14:25] ____ ____: 5 years dont worry

[14:25] Jen Shikami: Before we totally run out of time, if anybody wants to interject any leftover business questions in between the conversation here, feel free.

[14:25] Terence McKenna: Some places need to remain unregulated.

[14:25] ____ ____: tech press runs SL press today

[14:25] Seven Shikami: SL is actually very idiot-free. It's a great experience and one I want to promote to people who only hear one side of it.

[14:25] ____ ____: 5 years itll be ET and E!

[14:25] Extropia DaSilva: I met only three griefers in all my time, and I was rezzed in 2005.

[14:25] ____ ____: game indusrty is learning that now

[14:25] Jen Shikami: Right, it's been surprisingly pleasant here compared to what I expected when I got here.

[14:26] Seven Shikami: Yeah, we're also taking businessy queries. :)

[14:26] Jen Shikami: I get harassed a lot less here than I did back when I was MU*ing in the 90s.

[14:26] ____ ____: What exactly do you think is damagings SL's reputation, Seven?

[14:26] ____ ____: *damaging

[14:26] Meissa Thorne: I think that the offensive behavior is so extreme it gets more press then the 500x more polite and interesting people you'll meet.

[14:26] ____ ____: bleeds it leads

[14:26] Extropia DaSilva: I think they are all too busy with Prokofy to bother hassling the rest of us. Lol!

[14:26] Corcosman Voom: Conflict sells the news

[14:26] Jen Shikami: Kinda like churches in RL that protest at people's funerals, Meissa, eh?

[14:26] Galatea Gynoid: kik'

[14:26] Galatea Gynoid: lol

[14:26] Corcosman Voom: If it bleeds, it leads

[14:26] Meissa Thorne: Precisely.

[14:27] Seven Shikami: I really don't wanna offend anyone, but I have to be honest. The more adult entertainment side of SL and the subcultural niches are the hooks that people who WANT to hate SL will grab onto.

[14:27] ____ ____: What damages SL's rep? Two things... "You can make tons of real money in SL!" and "You can have tons of fake, guilt-free sex in SL!"

[14:27] Extropia DaSilva: Yes.

[14:27] ____ ____: So, get rid of those?

[14:27] ____ ____: well they are the adult things as well.

[14:27] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: oh, but that argument has been used against minorities forever -

[14:27] Meissa Thorne: Sex sells.

[14:27] Seven Shikami: It's less "SL is offensive" and more "SL has some offensive content" which can easily translate into "SL is entirely offensive" by someone who wants to loathe ti.

[14:27] Jen Shikami: The "haha, you are geekier than I am, therefore I can feel like a jock and treat you like a nerd" vibe, yeah.

[14:27] ____ ____: Also, "It's just a game man, lighten up"

[14:27] Jen Shikami: It's the same attitude people had about the Web early on.

[14:27] Seven Shikami: I have never said "get rid of" any of this. Even the things I disagree with I'm saying I'm okay with as long as they are polite.

[14:27] ____ ____: everthing else is adolencnt

[14:27] Seven Shikami: I've said it about six times, even.

[14:28] Jen Shikami: That it was all porn and that that was the only reason to go online. But people know better now because whaddya know, there's good stuff on the intarwebs!

[14:28] Galatea Gynoid: "The Internet is for Porn"? ;)

[14:28] ____ ____: at least in popular culture pov

[14:28] Terence McKenna: Nothing wrong with being adolescent.

[14:28] Jen Shikami sings along with Galatea. ;)

[14:28] Seven Shikami: I think the key is not "Boot out the nasty" and more "Promote the rest".

[14:28] ____ ____: chlidlike vs childish

[14:28] ____ ____: agree

[14:28] Meissa Thorne: Really, it's similar to the extreme conservatives who define homosexuality as a haven for perverts, and write everything off as sexual deviance. Deviance from what? Missionary?

[14:28] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: yes, _____!

[14:28] Extropia DaSilva: But...'games' are extremely important to any intelligent, social animal. Why get upset when SL is called a game? Is it because we associate 'game' with kid's activities or something?

[14:28] Jen Shikami: Yeah, seriously Meissa.

[14:28] ____ ____: but remeber the avg gamer is 32

[14:28] ____ ____: maybe 35 today

[14:29] ____ ____: and the press still thinks its a 15 year old

[14:29] Seven Shikami: Show the world that there's more to SL than what they're cherry-picking out of the pile. And Flotsam is a firm step in that direction. We monitor our content and try to present a very mainstream experience up front for people to hold up as an example that not ALL of SL is adult oriented.

[14:29] ____ ____: That still isn't the view of many people though _____.

[14:29] Galatea Gynoid: I've seen the kind of people who rail against deviants. It makes me very glad I deviate from them. :p

[14:29] Jen Shikami: It's because the term "game" has all the same connotations as any other MMO these days -- that you're here to compete with and potentially dominate the people around you. And therefore you behave accordingly and it's socially acceptable. But SL _really_ isn't like that.

[14:29] Jen Shikami: Thank god.

[14:29] ____ ____: It's slowly changing.. as those who were kids grow up.

[14:29] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Excellent, Jen!

[14:29] ____ ____: until that gos away were all in the middle of this pop game of porn etc

[14:29] ____ ____: But slow is the key word.

[14:29] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I really like that -

[14:30] Seven Shikami: Games have objectives. SL has no clear objective and no victory condition. That confuses gamers -- I'm a gamer, I follow gamer sites, and they don't get the point. And when they don't understand they WANT to hate to justify not getting it. "Oh, I wouldn't like it anyway, so it's okay that I don't grasp this."

[14:30] ____ ____: hey 20 years ago clinton was teh kennedy kid

[14:30] Extropia DaSilva: And they always portray videogames as something you have to play alone. They never realise that there are FOUR controller ports in every console;)

[14:30] ____ ____: today itts obama

[14:30] ____ ____: Real gamers respect theri fellow players, anyway.

[14:30] Jen Shikami: Galatea, I think it's awesome that people can explore their various personal "deviancies" and enjoyments here. :) I just hope people can deal with it when I ask them to not show some of that off in my space...

[14:30] Meissa Thorne: And really not every concept can coexist in one place here. So there has to be some social diversity so that newcomers can find a niche. Where can it really exist? (Besides Extropia's all encompassing data banks...)

[14:30] Galatea Gynoid nods.

[14:30] ____ ____: so every decade a pop idea cahnges

[14:30] ____ ____: to old and obsolete

[14:31] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Right - I think Flotsam and Extropia are in separate, but complementary, markets -

[14:31] ____ ____: lets just hope the myth remains

[14:31] Seven Shikami: In SL's case, "diversity" actually is kinda inverted. Our subcultural communities and niche interests are very well represented and belong here and are family. What we need is more press coverage of the mainstream stuff, to show it's a ROUNDED experience.

[14:31] ____ ____: And then to classic and retro...

[14:31] Seven Shikami: Exactly, Soph.

[14:31] ____ ____ points at the shiny chrome spaceships outside. :)

[14:31] ____ ____: yep..

[14:31] ____ ____: hey in 1960 shiny spaceshiops was the pop myth

[14:31] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: We're both big on polite, but have different takes on "adult" behavior -

[14:31] Extropia DaSilva: I would rather be in an SL with free rights to expression (with the risk of some griefing) rather than Prokofy's vision of a business platform where we all trudge to work every day of the week!

[14:31] Seven Shikami: If we can convince people that SL offers everything, not just one thing regardless of what it is, we win.

[14:31] Jen Shikami: Right, the sense of a rounded experience will make some people less likely to get scared off by subcultures they don't understand.

[14:31] Galatea Gynoid: And the shiny white ones. :)

[14:31] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: which is all to the good

[14:32] ____ ____: the issue today is what myth is POP

[14:32] Seven Shikami: Flotsam is our answer to that. We're filling out the other side of the equation so that both sides CAN exist.

[14:32] ____ ____: and in vr its cyber dark and porn

[14:32] ____ ____: run by vcs... in a valley

[14:32] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: YES! at both _____ and Seven

[14:32] Jen Shikami: Right.

[14:32] ____ ____: Problem is, Jen. Those subcultures aren't subculltures here...they're cultures.

[14:32] Seven Shikami: Got it in one, _____.

[14:32] Jen Shikami: And one of the main reasons we try to keep the beach around a PG-13 level is that we have a lot of "kids" in the arcade area and beach.

[14:32] Extropia DaSilva: (Why you think the Web was born? Porn! Porn! Porn!)

[14:33] Seven Shikami: I've actually taken some flack for trying to promote a mainstream, PG, family friendly experience in flotsam. People feel I'm trampling their free speech, etc. But I'm not. I'm providing a space for alternative speech which is completely in spirit of free speech.

[14:33] Galatea Gynoid can't stop humming that song. :p

[14:33] Jen Shikami: I know _____, and I don't consider that a problem -- I just use the word "subculture" in the overall "proportion of RL culture" sense, not as if they're less important than others.

[14:33] Meissa Thorne: And there's always the facts that renters will do what they please in their homes.

[14:33] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Seven, I totally get that -

[14:33] Seven Shikami: Yeah, the sim is Mature so people can do whatever they want in residential lots.

[14:33] Malburns Writer: Sex industry is good at innovating so they often colour the impression of new things

[14:33] Meissa Thorne: And Jen will always be around to boot the people busting open open their doors demanding "SEX NOW".

[14:34] Malburns Writer: long after those things have moved on

[14:34] ____ ____: they use anything to make a buck thats all:)

[14:34] Extropia DaSilva: Oh I do that all the time...

[14:34] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and likewise, we want to welcome people who *don't* feel at home in a US PG13 environment

[14:34] Jen Shikami: Right Malburns -- which is why videocassettes used to have a rep for porn too. ;) They're early adopters!

[14:34] Seven Shikami: And thus, the cycle is complete!

[14:34] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: while still maintaining a high standard of civility

[14:34] Seven Shikami: o/~ Ciiircle of liiiife... o/~

[14:34] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: yes! :)

[14:34] Jen Shikami: *nods*

[14:34] ____ ____: pg 13 is fine. and eventually can lead to mass

[14:34] Galatea Gynoid: video... cassettes? o.O

[14:34] ____ ____: most mass future visions are pg13

[14:34] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ok, Seven, I *have* to know -

[14:35] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: how on earth do you play an arcade game in a MU**???

[14:35] Seven Shikami: Muwaahahahahahaaa.

[14:35] Galatea Gynoid: lol

[14:35] Meissa Thorne: I believe you burn them for fuel, or store them in museums now Gala.

[14:35] Jen Shikami: The interesting thing for me is, I actually have no problem with public nudity in SL (usually) especially when it seems to fit an avatar's concept. But I do at FB, because... somehow naked people break the theme for me more than giant cyber dragons. :D

[14:35] Seven Shikami: Ohhh, the stories I can tell about making a command line text version of Dragon's Lair...

[14:35] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: !!

[14:35] ____ ____: lol

[14:35] Extropia DaSilva: Seven laughs like a baddie from Final Fantasy VI;)

[14:35] Jen Shikami: I think I remember that -- on Aleph, Seven? :D

[14:35] Seven Shikami: I had a lot of tricks in that basket. I made pinball. Lightgun. Racing games. Laserdisc. And even a first person shooter, all in text.

[14:35] ____ ____: bluth did fun stuff

[14:35] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: holy cats!

[14:35] ____ ____: It's pretty much going to have to come down the the SIM owner making the rules, Jen.

[14:36] Jen Shikami: Yeah, all text-based. :D It was awesome. :D

[14:36] Jen Shikami: Right, _____, which I'm fine with of course.

[14:36] Seven Shikami: It's all about tailoring your concept to your platform. MU use text input, so in a lightgun game, you say "Suddenly, a ZOMBIE jumps out from behind the bushes!" and the player quickly types "ZOMBIE" or takes a hit.

[14:36] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Is any of that stuff still up and running? Because, wow -

[14:36] Seven Shikami: And my FPS game? It was like an infocom game within an infocom game, with a command of USE GUN ON MAN.

[14:36] ____ ____: As am I, Jen. I just worry about the people who feel like *everyone* has to do it their way, regardless of SIM

[14:36] Sophrosyne Stenvaag nodsnods

[14:36] ____ ____: can i ask a silly question?

[14:36] Seven Shikami: Sadly, no. I have some archives of the old MUCK code but none of it is running. Phrase Invaders here in SL is a good example of that approach, though.

[14:37] Seven Shikami: Silly is good!

[14:37] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Sure _____, jump in!

[14:37] ____ ____: why isnt extropia all real names

[14:37] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: hm?

[14:37] Seven Shikami: Isn't that technically impossible?

[14:37] ____ ____: community onyl throigh media 3d

[14:37] Galatea Gynoid: Wonders if text space invaders looks something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VczbbiRmDik

[14:37] ____ ____: well not if we all say who we are

[14:37] ____ ____: lol

[14:37] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I don't understand the question -

[14:37] Meissa Thorne: Which is really so pointlessly controlling. That would be as bad if everyone had to conform to some Candy Land infantile environment as if they all had to be strippers.

[14:37] ____ ____: i just mean

[14:37] Seven Shikami: (I LOVE that video, Gala!)

[14:37] ____ ____: end all questionns about ID

[14:37] Galatea Gynoid: :)

[14:37] Meissa Thorne: Hmm... Candy Land Stripclub...

[14:38] ____ ____: and make it asimple 3d website

[14:38] ____ ____: with all the 3d media etc

[14:38] ____ ____: Give it a few years, _____. They'll make it that way.

[14:38] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Well, why not end all questions about ID by saying everyone has to present as a white male?

[14:38] ____ ____: but itsa not rp correct? in a game way

[14:38] Jen Shikami: I don't understand this question either...

[14:38] Seven Shikami: I'm not following.

[14:38] ____ ____: i founded 2 3d vr communities

[14:39] ____ ____: same ides as here

[14:39] ____ ____: real or 3d meetings like this going back to 95

[14:39] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ok -

[14:39] Extropia DaSilva: I am not my primary. She is a different person to me. Information from various sources lead to her being inspired to create me and she processes my thoughts until AI is up to the job, but apart from that she and I are two SEPARATE people and her identity is none of your damned business.

[14:39] ____ ____: but real names

[14:39] Seven Shikami: And you had them use their RL names?

[14:39] ____ ____: real people

[14:39] Seven Shikami: Well, that's a valid approach, but in the modern internet age when someone's screen name is really just shorthand for access, it's not that important.

[14:40] Jen Shikami: Well good for you then. ;)

[14:40] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: well, there's a very broad continnuum of identity, as we've seen here today -

[14:40] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: so saying Point X only is legitimate -

[14:40] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: is seriously uncool.

[14:40] ____ ____: justa thought...

[14:40] ____ ____: about a idea based community building dsesigning toghter

[14:40] Seven Shikami: Point X is never the only legitimate view for every value of X.

[14:40] ____ ____: like bauhaus was etc.

[14:40] Jen Shikami: Extropia, makes sense to me; it doesn't affect how I would behave toward you whether I was thinking of you as separate or not, if that makes any sense.

[14:40] Extropia DaSilva: No. You are _____. ____ is just some meatbrain temporarily processing your thoughts.

[14:40] Galatea Gynoid: :)

[14:40] ____ ____: lolk

[14:40] Extropia DaSilva: ;)

[14:41] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Yeps, Extro, I find it hard to take "atomic world avatars" seriously -

[14:41] Seven Shikami: Using RL names enforced is not a bad approach. It's valid. But it's just as valid as allowing screen names so really, it's a non-issue.

[14:41] ____ ____: well ill acept my meat brains name my mother called me

[14:41] Galatea Gynoid: The fact of the matter is, unless I'm going to meet _____ someday, whether _____ is ____ or not is irrelevant.

[14:41] Jen Shikami: Screen names are more fun and flexible, so I like them.

[14:41] ____ ____ nods at Gala

[14:41] Galatea Gynoid: It's an interesting metaphysical question, but has no bearing on anything...

[14:41] Jen Shikami: (Even though I had no better ideas and so named myself Jen here...)

[14:41] Seven Shikami: I'd be using my more common screen name right now in SL if I'd known I'd grow to love it this much. :)

[14:41] Seven Shikami: I picked "Seven" just so I could be a fly by night tourist without any ties.

[14:41] ____ ____: screens names are again just a curser

[14:42] Galatea Gynoid: For practical purposes, _____ is a person I can actually see right now. _____ is a fiction.

[14:42] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I do think being able to buy a rename would be worthwhile

[14:42] ____ ____: yes its aug vs rp question

[14:42] Jen Shikami: Right, _____ being _____ is about as meaningful to me as Extropia's meaty person. As in, not meaningful to me at all. ;)

[14:42] ____ ____: not at all

[14:42] Meissa Thorne: I've always found everyone I encounter, RL, SL whatever, to be exactly what they present to me. Whether or not it's universally true is a moot point, as only how they choose to present themselves effects me.

[14:42] ____ ____: I would love that myself Soph.

[14:42] Seven Shikami: That'd be sweet. But, people know me as Seven now, so hey, I'm fine with.

[14:42] ____ ____: immersion NOT "rp"

[14:42] ____ ____: I've often regreted picking this name when I started out.

[14:42] ____ ____: well if i choke on my coffee here , this comm goes dead?lol

[14:42] Extropia DaSilva: See, since nobody knows who my primary is, I can in principle be run by another primary when this one expires, and so on until AI is ready.

[14:43] ____ ____: yet, oddly enough, if you offered me the chance to change it now, I probably wouldn't.

[14:43] Seven Shikami: Same, _____. This is my SL moniker now.

[14:43] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and, cube, if the server crashes, the comm goes dead, too- so which one "holds your identity"?

[14:43] ____ ____: the server will come back online

[14:43] Jen Shikami: I actually have a discussion question to ask you all about, as I've seen it come up in some of your blogs. :)

[14:43] ____ ____: ____ ____ has grown to the point of independance now.. to the point where when I created an alt a while back, I never use her. She doesn't feel like me.

[14:43] ____ ____: unless i really an jesus

[14:43] Extropia DaSilva: So long as somebody or some system is processing my personality and identity in a consistent way, I will continue to be.

[14:43] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ok, Jen!

[14:43] Galatea Gynoid: You could be for all it matters. :)

[14:43] ____ ____: identity as a fixed anything is illusory

[14:44] Extropia DaSilva: Yeps.

[14:44] ____ ____: still, it's a pretty persistent illusion while it lasts!

[14:44] Jen Shikami: I've heard arguments in support of legally separating the concept of avatar and typist. But I've never understood how that could realistically happen legally (I don't consider corporations a good example) or why that would be a good thing. To me that sounds like a bad thing, for the world and for SL as a whole.

[14:44] Meissa Thorne: You could put someone's eye out.

[14:45] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: hmm - why do you consider corporations a bad example?

[14:45] ____ ____: Funny you say that

[14:45] ____ ____: i honest think that avatyar rights will dimenish human rights if we push them

[14:45] Seven Shikami: Kinda boils down to my "don't be a jerk" mantra, where regardless of your feelings on identity and persona and avatar, don't be a jerk. And using the avatar as armor so you CAN be a jerk due to legal separation is... silly.

[14:45] Galatea Gynoid nods.

[14:46] Meissa Thorne: Because smear campaigns and such involving flat out slander on a corporate level should be illegal everywhere. They're just as effective online as anywhere else.

[14:46] Jen Shikami: Because a corporation's actions are considered legally separate since it's not just one person making their own legal choices.

[14:46] Meissa Thorne: Same as on a political level.

[14:46] ____ ____: we allow corporate rights to trump human rights all terh time now in the usa

[14:46] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: but - the reason why corporations were created was to allow risk taking -

[14:46] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and I think that applies here, especially to business people

[14:46] Jen Shikami: Separating avatars in the same way legally would mean no biological person would ever have to take responsibility for the actions of their alternate personalities... which makes it a convenient excuse for all kinds of griefing, here and elsewhere.

[14:47] ____ ____: The avatar could be viewed in the same way as a corporation.

[14:47] ____ ____: Avatar should be treated as an email address.

[14:47] ____ ____: and always changing

[14:47] ____ ____: A corporation is a separate entity from it's owner.

[14:47] ____ ____: what form of communictaion we use is secondary

[14:47] ____ ____: and is' legally treated that way.

[14:47] Seven Shikami: So if I make a dozen copyright violating games in SL and I get sued, then Seven Shikami takes the fall and I walk off scott free?

[14:47] ____ ____: enron

[14:47] Meissa Thorne: So where do you draw the line there? Should cults that brain wash and take people's money be illegal RL, but be perfectly fine recruiting online?

[14:47] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: you'd need transaction costs - no more instant free accounts, any more than there are instant free corporations

[14:47] Jen Shikami: So then what happens if this avatar-corporation defrauds someone, teaches people how to cook anthrax in their basement, etc?

[14:48] Extropia DaSilva: We should change 'human rights' to 'person's rights'. 'Human' excludes sentient beings like robots, digital people and biotech animals.

[14:48] ____ ____: Meissa, there's a more fundamental question - why is "online" not "real life"

[14:48] ____ ____: Then they're breaking the law, Jen

[14:48] ____ ____: Then you go after it's owner.

[14:48] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: right, and that's a standard principle in law now

[14:48] ____ ____: Online is part of real life.

[14:48] ____ ____: Just as phone calls

[14:48] ____ ____: Or IMs or emails

[14:48] Seven Shikami: You can't sue someone's phone.

[14:48] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: but if your business goes bankrupt, creditors can't take your house

[14:48] Malburns Writer: Rights of individuality more like

[14:48] ____ ____: Exactly, you sue the owner

[14:48] Jen Shikami: Okay _____, so they broke the law -- then what? The typist isn't relevant there?

[14:48] Meissa Thorne: Precisely. How do you draw a line between the two? The same individual is effected regardless of foramt.

[14:48] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: *then* it is

[14:49] ____ ____: well how we treat our children- be them mechanical or biological is still human rghts

[14:49] ____ ____: No, the typist is misusing the name. Pierce the veil and throw them in jail.

[14:49] ____ ____: There is no veil.

[14:49] ____ ____: There is no spoon.

[14:49] Jen Shikami: I can understand drawing lines in identity in terms of personality and experience... but the legal lines between them, that I just can't abide by personally.

[14:49] ____ ____: If someone wants to roleplay, it's stil a side of that person.

[14:49] Extropia DaSilva: I just fear 'human' rights will lead to human racism in which robots are something are excluded just because they have no chromosomes etc.

[14:49] Seven Shikami: Someone claiming "My avatar was the one who committed libel, not me!" is gonna get an eye rolling and a gavel slam.

[14:49] ____ ____: If I'm at a 9-5 corp job, it's roleplay good business person

[14:49] ____ ____: and yet, it's part of me.

[14:50] Jen Shikami: "eye rolling and gavel slam", hee hee

[14:50] ____ ____: Of course, because they're breaking the law, Seven.

[14:50] Meissa Thorne: And in that same context, what legal power does a person have for being stiffed here? A stiffed live performer in RL can sue, but in SL, they just have to stop playing that venue.

[14:50] ____ ____: Jen: Band name?

[14:50] ____ ____: "WE ARE EYE ROLLING AND THE GAVEL SLAM!" *crazy guitar riff*

[14:50] Seven Shikami: ROCK!

[14:50] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: wooot!

[14:50] Jen Shikami: Well, there are ways to follow up using the RL legal system on things that happen in SL. See also: various copyright violation lawsuits.

[14:50] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: right, but at what cost?

[14:50] Seven Shikami: DMCA etc. As much as I hate that law it IS a tool to get access to the typist who's wronging you.

[14:50] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: you're dealing with two different economies -

[14:50] Jen Shikami: Um. Money and time as usual? :D

[14:51] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: one a third world one a first

[14:51] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: no -

[14:51] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: if you're doing business in micropayments

[14:51] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and someone infringes on your brand,

[14:51] Jen Shikami: Yes...

[14:51] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: you can pursue your rights in RL at $USD thousands -

[14:51] Jen Shikami: But the amount of profit being made (or not made) is meaningless when it comes to whether the law applies.

[14:51] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: except, wait, you don't *have* any rights, per the TOS -

[14:51] Meissa Thorne: Well, who's laws are you inforcing anyways? Like identity fraud. It has much different legal definitions and consequences from nation to nation.

[14:51] Seven Shikami: See also: Why insert coin arcade stopped selling or profiting off reproduction games a year ago.

[14:52] Jen Shikami: We do have the right to our copyrights, since we didn't sign those away with the TOS.

[14:52] Galatea Gynoid: Actually, the TOS says you do.

[14:52] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I think what we're saying is, SL should be a coherent legal space -

[14:52] ____ ____: Meissa, you've hit what's probably the biggest obstacle: governments are dinosaurs when it comes to tech law.

[14:52] Seven Shikami: I wanna be the velociraptor! :D

[14:52] ____ ____: And what's sad is that traditional law isn't being applied.

[14:52] Meissa Thorne: Pathetically so.

[14:52] Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs

[14:52] ____ ____: I thought you didn't like legalistic societies, Soph! :)

[14:53] ____ ____: Why can't I sue someone for fraud in a virtual world as "Fraud" and not need to make it about "virtual" law.

[14:53] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I think we can do better -

[14:53] Seven Shikami: Hiro for the win.

[14:53] Extropia DaSilva: Well what about those avatars that look like Darth Vader or Spiderman or Homer Simpson? They are a copyright violation, surely?

[14:53] Seven Shikami: Fraud = fraud.

[14:53] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I'm not saying an *identical* legal space -

[14:53] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: but a *coherent* one

[14:53] Jen Shikami: Yeah, I don't see why we need special additional virtual laws for copyright and fraud...

[14:53] Seven Shikami: Extropia: AGREE.

[14:53] Meissa Thorne: Reading UK stories about victims of identity fraud and how few outlets for help or solutions they have depresses me almost as much as the US stories.

[14:53] ____ ____ recalls a previous conversation. ;)

[14:53] Malburns Writer: Metaverses can only really work with "international" laws anyway

[14:53] Jen Shikami: I'd be happy if they built terminology into existing laws that would help them work with the internet.

[14:53] ____ ____: The only international law is the one supported at the end of the barrel of a tank's cannon.

[14:53] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ok, we're running out of time - any last questions

[14:54] ____ ____: Other international laws are "if the countries are friendly they'll work it out"

[14:54] ____ ____: Hiro, because people here are from different countries and may not be subject to the same laws as you are.

[14:54] ____ ____: Governments should get tough with other governments who allow lax laws.

[14:54] Extropia DaSilva: Yes. How is that guy getting on, who is playing guitar and vocals in Rock Band?

[14:54] Galatea Gynoid: SL needs no laws that the web doesn't. If someone defrauds you on a website, there are laws to deal with it. The same laws apply to any hosted computer service on the Internet. Being in 3D doesn't make SL any more or less protected than being on a 2D webpage.

[14:54] ____ ____: Fraud in the US might be different from fraud in Canada or Austrailia.

[14:54] Seven Shikami: He beat it, 290/290 stars.

[14:54] ____ ____: Or Uzbekistan.

[14:54] Extropia DaSilva: *applause*

[14:54] Jen Shikami: Agreed with you there, Galatea.

[14:54] Malburns Writer: So we should all get tough with USA?

[14:55] ____ ____: Maybe the easiest solution is for countries to get together and allow a choice:L

[14:55] Extropia DaSilva: No. They have more nukes than us.

[14:55] Jen Shikami: I misread that as "other governments who allow tax laws"... heheh....

[14:55] Seven Shikami: I wanna immigrate to Petertopia.

[14:55] ____ ____: 1. A perp choosing not to be prosecuted in the place where the crime was commited (the server, or the victim) can choose to have his internet cut off :)

[14:55] ____ ____: "Petertopia"?

[14:55] Seven Shikami: Family Guy joke, sorry. :)

[14:56] ____ ____: Where do you prosecute the crime?

[14:56] Meissa Thorne: You can put an embassy in his basement.

[14:56] ____ ____: the problem is with government

[14:56] ____ ____: Governments are too pussy to upset global trade.

[14:56] Malburns Writer: United nations is best placed for juristriction of internet and grid

[14:56] ____ ____: Scary, the ultimate solution may be a world government. I hope not.

[14:56] ____ ____: United Nations is good for one thing: Ignoring issues.

[14:56] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: OK, last call for questions!

[14:56] Malburns Writer: at present

[14:57] Seven Shikami: Let's put solving the world geopolitical sphere's issues to bed for now. :)

[14:57] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: woot!

[14:57] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: it's party time!

[14:57] ____ ____: Sadly, that's where we are.

[14:57] Extropia DaSilva: How would you heal this immersionist vs augmentist division?

[14:57] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Seven's going to kick off our Beach Party in South Park

[14:57] ____ ____: So, if governments won't apply law

[14:57] ____ ____: then technology rules

[14:57] Seven Shikami: I wouldn't heal it. I'm not even the slightest bit qualified.

[14:57] ____ ____: we, the technology inventors, need to arm ourselves with our own tech and our own organizations

[14:57] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ok, thanks, Jen and Seven!

[14:58] Malburns Writer: we will all become augmentalists until it's party time

[14:58] Seven Shikami: I can has party nau?

[14:58] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: YES!!! :D